Friday, 13 November 2009

An exchange between a creationist and some Christians

From Christian Forums.

The discussion starts with a request for help;

Creationist said;
"I have an ongoing debate with a kid at school about evolution.

He's presenting some pretty good arguments and he's kicking my butt, can anyone help?!"

He is asked to outline the arguments and does so as follows;
"It is a long, drawn out logic style argument, I'll go through it step by step:

First he said that there are two different types of claims:

faith claims: those which could not be falsified by observation or experiment even in principle.
(i.e. god exists)

-and-

science claims: those which can be falsified by observation or experiment
(i.e. the earth is roughly spherical in shape)

This seemed perfectly rational, so I agreed.

he asked if I would agree that only science claims should be taught in science class. After some hemming and hawwing I agreed.

then the argument went like this:

faith based claims are those that which cannot be falsified.
faith based claims should not be taught in science class.
Creationism / ID can incorporate any evidence by saying "God made it that way"
Therefore creationism / ID cannot be falsified
Therefore creationism / ID should not be taught in science class.

He got me, Where did I go wrong? where's the flaw in his logic that I can't see?"

The response he got from a Christian was;
"There is no flaw in his argument. He's right.

Why do you think creationism should be taught in science class?"

As you might expect, this did not go down well and as well as expressing his disappointment the Creationist revealed his full position with these comments;
"With over half the country being creationists, I was really expecting help... especially on the Christian forum...

as to why creationism should be taught in science class, the choice between the word of God and the word of the atheists seems like a pretty easy one."

The Christian responded with this;
"You are getting help. You are being told that your friend is correct and that you are wrong. Would you rather be lied to? Would that really be more helpful?

Why do you believe science is atheistic?

I should add that even the late Henry Morris, the founder of modern creationism, has argued that it is not science."

The Creationist gives a thoughtful and considered response;
"You're right, from what I've heard they're not atheists, they have a religion called "Darwinism" where they reject Jesus and hold a racist Nazi named Darwin as their prophet.

why are we letting them indoctrinate our kids with this stuff?

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for."

A rabid response from the Christians;
"Careful, now. There are many Christians here who are evolutionists. The fact of the matter is that you have a significant misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolution is neither atheistic nor a religion. It is a scientific theory like any other. And neither was Darwin a Nazi (he died before Hitler was even born). It appears that what you think evolution is and what it really is are two different things.

He's not wrong in his logic. You are suffering from a severe confirmation bias. If you're looking to evangelize somehow, why not be gracious in your Christianity and concede the point in a Christ-like manner, rather than try to argue about something that you clearly do not understand? I suspect that would go a lot farther in conveying the spirit of Christ."

The signal to noise ratio does rather deteriorate after that but I think this exchange makes a key point.

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